On the Vulnerable World Hypothesis

post by Catherine Brewer (catherine) · 2022-08-01T12:55:55.620Z · EA · GW · 13 comments

Contents

  Summary
  A quick disclaimer/some context
  Thinking about the VWH
    Drawing conclusions from the VWH
    The technological development assumption
    Thinking about P3
      Who are the bad guys?
      We care about a subset of these groups
    How easy is it to make terrible things happen?
    Other possible interventions
  Do the costs of surveillance outweigh the benefits?
    The best case surveillance scenario
    What I'm worried about even in the best case scenario
      The free thought effect
      The weirdness effect
      Erodes trust norms and reduces the value of trust
      Single point of control = single point of failure
    What's this, no mention of the privacy cost?
    Moving beyond the best case: relaxing the 'good actors' assumption
      Totalitarianism risk
      Misuse risk
        What if we put AI systems in charge?
      Surveillance for what ends?
        Just put the good guys in charge!
    Relaxing the 'extremely effective' assumption
      False negatives
      False positives
      If we don't know it's ineffective, surveillance provides a false sense of security
      Ineffective surveillance isn't worth the harms
    Relaxing the 'democratically agreed upon' assumption
      Democratic agreement is an unrealistic assumption
      Undemocratic global surveillance is really quite bad
    Relaxing the 'global' assumption
      Non-global surveillance is ineffective
  Conclusion
    Notes
None
13 comments

This is a cross-post from my Substack.

Summary

Nick Bostrom presents the Vulnerable World Hypothesis (VWH): if technological progress continues without safeguards, we should expect the means and information necessary to cause a catastrophic event to become sufficiently available for malicious actors to cause such an event. He argues that to the extent that the VWH is true, we should consider implementing ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance (henceforth just surveillance) to mitigate the risk of these catastrophic events.

I have some misgivings about this argument, which I divide into three parts. First, I consider the premises and assumptions of the VWH. I argue that:

Second, I consider the costs and benefits of surveillance. I start with a best case scenario, where I assume surveillance is:

and argue that even under these conditions, surveillance:

I also make a more general argument against systems with a single point of failure.

Third, I relax these assumptions one by one.

My main concerns are that:

So as things stand, I don't think ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance is a good idea.

A quick disclaimer/some context

I wrote this post in a semi-academic style, and I'm worried that this signals undue seriousness or confidence in my thoughts. I'm really not very confident in what I've said! Everything here was written up quickly after some initial thoughts and discussion with others. At times I make claims and hardly defend them; at other times I defend my claims, but I expect given some time to reflect on them, I'd change my mind. Interpret this as 'some thoughts I had and wanted to write up', rather than 'a carefully reasoned critique of an academic paper'.

I'd like to hear criticism and corrections, particularly if you think they undermine key parts of my argument.

Thinking about the VWH

Bostrom defines the VWH as follows:

VWH: If technological development continues then a set of capabilities will at some point be attained that make the devastation of civilization extremely likely, unless civilization sufficiently exits the semianarchic default condition.

Bostrom later stipulates that 'civilisational destruction' here refers to:

any destructive event that is at least as bad as the death of 15 per cent of the world population or a reduction of global GDP by >50 per cent per cent lasting for more than a decade.

Such events would be considered global catastrophic risks (GCRs) under most definitions of GCRs. Given this (and for simplicity) , I'll refer to them as global catastrophes.

Bostrom presents the VWH as just that - a hypothesis - and states explicitly that he thinks its truth is still an open question. For my purposes it's helpful to restate the VWH as an argument with three premises, remembering that Bostrom would not commit to it:

P1: The information necessary to cause an event which is itself a global catastrophe, or likely to lead to a global catastrophe, is sufficiently available

P2: The means to cause an event which is itself a global catastrophe, or likely to lead to a global catastrophe, is sufficiently available[1]

P3: There is a non-zero number of actors who want to cause such events

Drawing conclusions from the VWH

To get from the VWH to a claim about ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance, we'll need to add another premise.

P4: Ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance is the best way to decrease the risk of global catastrophes[2]

Which allows us to conclude that:

C1: We should consider implementing ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance.

These are deliberately pretty vague premises! Before considering the costs and benefits of surveillance, I think it's worth clarifying some of them.

The technological development assumption

Underpinning P1 and P2 is an assumption of continuing technological development, which is not uncontroversial. Unless we're very confident that failing to reach technological maturity would be an existential catastrophe, we should consider whether alternatives to unrestricted technological development (including differential technological development) are feasible.[3]

Thinking about P3

P3: There is a non-zero number of actors who want to cause such events

Who are the bad guys?

It's unclear to me what the reference class for these malicious actors should be. Different actors will have different motivations for causing these events, which in turn suggests different risk levels and different possible responses. Conflating all malicious actors into one category loses nuance.

Suppose we mean groups willing to cause highly destructive events to achieve a particular goal (e.g. terrorists). It's no longer the case that surveillance is the only possible intervention. If these events are a means to these actors' desired ends, then we can (for example) negotiate with them and compromise to partially satisfy their ends, rather than implement surveillance to cut off their ability to do such acts entirely.

I'm not saying we should pursue other interventions - surveillance might still be best! But I think it's important to note that we do have alternatives, and they should be considered before we accept surveillance.

Now suppose instead that we mean actors who want to commit these acts as an end in themselves. (I'm imagining classic world-ending cults.) We can't negotiate with these people: here, our only intervention is to prevent them from having the opportunity to do really bad things. But this group is a lot smaller than the previous group, and so all else being equal, we should expect them to be less well-connected/competent and thus less dangerous.

This doesn't mean that we should ignore the risk from world-ending cults, but it does suggest this risk is a lot smaller. This should give us reason to pause and re-evaluate the case for global surveillance to mitigate this risk.

We care about a subset of these groups

Here I make the obvious point that actually, we don't care about all malicious actors - we care about malicious actors who _also _have the information and means necessary to cause global catastrophes.

These two things don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. Under a specific set of assumptions, they might: if we think that the information and means necessary to cause global catastrophes are going to be easily accessible, then we can conclude that any sufficiently motivated malicious actor would be able to cause global catastrophes. But these assumptions aren't obviously correct, and so the number of people we care about may well be smaller than even my previous point suggested.

How easy is it to make terrible things happen?

It currently seems pretty doable to make really bad things happen, and at least some people would like to make really bad things happen. Yet despite this, really bad things keep not happening.

Does this matter? I think at least a little. Sceptics can say that the information and means to commit really bad acts, including global catastrophes, haven't been around for very long. This makes a direct comparison to long-run risk unfair, since we're worried about global catastrophes happening over a span of centuries (if not longer), rather than a span of decades. That's a fair complaint. But I think at the very least, we should conclude from this that at least one of the following claims are true:

All of these considerations affect our evaluation of the costs and benefits of different interventions.

Other possible interventions

Interventions which target P1:

Interventions which target P1 and P2:

Interventions which target P3:

Interventions, which target more than one premise

Do the costs of surveillance outweigh the benefits?

Even if we accept premises 1 through 3, to conclude that we should implement global surveillance to guard against this vulnerability, we must also accept P4 (that surveillance is the best response).

The best case surveillance scenario

I'll start with the following assumptions:

  1. Surveillance is implemented by good actors
  2. Surveillance is extremely effective (if not perfect)
  3. Surveillance is democratically agreed upon
  4. Surveillance is global

Even under this set of assumptions, surveillance is still pretty scary, and I think it gets scarier when these assumptions are relaxed.

What I'm worried about even in the best case scenario

Even assuming that:

  1. Surveillance is implemented by good actors
  2. Surveillance is extremely effective (if not perfect)
  3. Surveillance is democratically agreed upon
  4. Surveillance is global

Surveillance limits free thought, and it disincentivises weirdness.

The free thought effect

This argument comes from from a paper by Neil Richards: surveillance is bad because it harms intellectual privacy, which is itself necessary for free thought. New ideas and beliefs often form best away from public exposure, and furthermore challenge the mainstream. This means that intellectual privacy is necessary to form new ideas and beliefs, thus necessary for free thought.

Note that we can't avoid this cost via secret surveillance, for the following reasons:

  1. Secret surveillance is unlikely to remain secret in the long-term
  2. Secret surveillance is undemocratic
  3. Secret surveillance has unique harms (I think most saliently the risk of blackmail)

The weirdness effect

This is one of Richards' empirical claims: surveillance 'inclines us to the mainstream and the boring', and thus threatens what he calls intellectual diversity and 'eccentric individuality'.

If we value epistemics or personal intellectual freedom (and I think we should!), we should worry about these effects.

Erodes trust norms and reduces the value of trust

Bostrom argues that surveillance could in fact enhance public trust, but I think it's unclear which way this would go. Maybe surveillance would lead to everyone feeling comfortable and happy trusting others; maybe instead it would create an atmosphere of paranoia and an erosion of traditional trust norms.

More speculatively, there seems to be something valuable about earning and granting trust which is lost with the introduction of surveillance. The process of forming relationships and being vulnerable with others is distinctive precisely because it's not universal; trusting others matters because it doesn't happen by default. I think this trust would lose its distinctiveness, and thus some of its value, if global surveillance and thus a generic 'trust in others' became the default.

Single point of control = single point of failure

Having one defence mechanism against global catastrophes seems unnecessarily risky. I'd prefer we adopt a Swiss cheese model of defence, with multiple overlapping mechanisms to prevent global catastrophe.

Of course, implementing surveillance doesn't preclude implementing other defence mechanisms. But I think that in practice, a surveillance system (especially one which seems extremely effective) would provide a false sense of security, which would in turn make implementing other defence mechanisms less likely.

What's this, no mention of the privacy cost?

I don't think a privacy/security trade off is the right framing for thinking about the costs and benefits of surveillance. This is a moderately hot take? The trade off framing has informed a lot of work on surveillance: most surveillance scholars assume that surveillance infringes on people's privacy, and are pretty worried about the corresponding harms.

I'm not convinced this is the best way to think about surveillance for the following reasons:

Moving beyond the best case: relaxing the 'good actors' assumption

Assume that:

  1. Surveillance is extremely effective (if not perfect)
  2. Surveillance is democratically agreed upon
  3. Surveillance is global

but that surveillance is not necessarily implemented by good actors.

Totalitarianism risk

I don't think surveillance guarantees totalitarianism, but it makes it much more likely. Implementing this surveillance system would concentrate power in the hands of its enforcers., and if they want to, they could use this system to suppress actions they disapprove of. This could easily be abused to keep the enforcers in power, and greatly increase the risk of totalitarian lock-in.

Totalitarian lock-in is described by Bostrom as an existential risk: even without lock-in, lasting totalitarianism could be a global catastrophe. So there's an interesting tension here where attempts to reduce existential risk themselves increase global catastrophic risks. I'm not sure if this is true for many other attempts at reducing existential risk (biosecurity proposals don't seem to increase GCR, some AI governance proposals might do?), but I think it's worth thinking seriously about.

Misuse risk

Even assuming we don't end up in some totalitarian dystopia, I think surveillance creates a new vulnerability that malicious actors can exploit. Suppose that surveillance effectively eliminates the possibility of causing other global catastrophes, but is partly implemented by humans. In this case, surveillance offers a new opportunity of causing harm while curtailing other opportunities to cause harm. Given this, we'd expect malicious actors to switch focus to getting in a position of power in the surveillance administration, so they can cause harm there.

Seen this way, surveillance may reduce the risk of malicious actors using other harmful technologies, but it also introduces a new risk of malicious actors using surveillance to cause harm.

What if we put AI systems in charge?

One response to this risk is to eliminate or minimise the human element in surveillance. Bostrom proposes using AI to monitor live video and audio and detect potentially harmful actions, only involving humans to check data flagged as possibly harmful. The assumption here is that most people don't want global catastrophes to happen, so using a sufficiently large (and sufficiently non-malicious) sample of people to check footage reduces the likelihood that a video checker would let something awful happen to an acceptably low level.

I think this works to reduce misuse risk, but introduces its own risks. Current image classification systems are notoriously easy to attack, and bad actors would be strongly incentivised to figure out ways of getting around AI surveillance systems.[5] If we could be very confident that the AI systems used for image classification were very accurate, then I'd be much more optimistic about this. But absent evidence that future classification models will be extremely accurate, I'm a little nervous about this response.

Surveillance for what ends?

Once actors have surveillance capabilities, they face incentives to surveil, and once they start surveilling, they face incentives to expand the range of activities they detect and prevent or punish. I'm worried that this has pretty bad effects.

Governments which surveil their citizens to prevent global catastrophes face incentives to expand surveillance to wider issues: the surveillance infrastructure is established, so the cost would be low, and the value of preventing crime is high. As Bostrom argues, ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance for all kinds of criminal activities (i.e. not just global catastrophes) could be overall cost-effective.

But we lack global agreement on what acts should be surveilled and stopped. Imagine giving a semi-authoritarian leader surveillance capabilities. What's to stop them using surveillance to identify and prevent acts others would consider acceptable and even valuable, e.g. peaceful protests?

I think we should expect surveillance to be used to prevent non-catastrophic events, and this is likely to be harmful.

Just put the good guys in charge!

One response to this is to argue that we should decide globally (perhaps via democratic means) what actions may and may not be punished or stopped.

I think this is a better idea, but still has some major flaws:

Another response would be centralising the administration of surveillance. I think this reduces risk from repressive states, but increasing power concentration increases misuse and totalitarianism risks from the surveillance administration. Also, abandoning the democratic requirement sounds risky!

Relaxing the 'extremely effective' assumption

Assume that:

  1. Surveillance is implemented by good actors
  2. Surveillance is democratically agreed upon
  3. Surveillance is global

but that surveillance is not necessarily extremely effective.

This surveillance faces three key problems:

False negatives

Misidentifying catastrophic acts as innocent acts leads to, well, global catastrophe.

False positives

Misidentifying innocent acts as catastrophic acts limits free thought and disincentivises weirdness.

If we don't know it's ineffective, surveillance provides a false sense of security

If our surveillance system appears to work, and we collectively relax a bit, we're likely to be underprepared for any failure of the system.

Another way of looking at this is that it's rational to spend a lot of time preparing for the outcomes of very bad events in the no surveillance world: they seem sufficiently likely that the benefits of planning for them outweigh the costs. If we were to implement effective global surveillance, then planning for the outcomes of really bad events no longer seems worth it. But we could be wrong about how effective our surveillance is, which makes failure to plan much worse; and even if we're right about effectiveness, bad events we haven't planned for could still occur, and would be much worse given we haven't planned.

Ineffective surveillance isn't worth the harms

Surveillance has to be a certain level of effectiveness to justify its harms. I think what this level is is, and whether it would be technically feasible to reach that level, are still open questions.

Relaxing the 'democratically agreed upon' assumption

Assume that:

  1. Surveillance is implemented by good actors
  2. Surveillance is extremely effective (if not perfect)
  3. Surveillance is global

But that surveillance is not necessarily democratically agreed upon.

Democratic agreement is an unrealistic assumption

Global surveillance is a kind of collective action problem. The cost to each individual is high: the surveilled sacrifice privacy, weirdness, and trust, as I have argued. The benefit to each individual, however, is relatively small.[6]Given this, it seems unlikely that surveillance would be democratically consented to.

Undemocratic global surveillance is really quite bad

Three key claims here:

  1. Democracy is good
  2. Democracy is important for surveillance, since misuse of surveillance threatens democracy
  3. Democracy is important for surveillance, since democratic approval increases the likelihood of compliance

I'm not going to argue for democracy from first principles. I think it's pretty good! And more contentiously, I think it's also uniquely important for surveillance, since misused surveillance can directly threaten democracy.

Relaxing the 'global' assumption

Assume that:

  1. Surveillance is implemented by good actors
  2. Surveillance is extremely effective (if not perfect)
  3. Surveillance is democratically agreed upon

But that surveillance is not necessarily global.

Non-global surveillance is ineffective

Two problems here:

I'm not sure whether some countries implementing surveillance increases or decreases the risk of global catastrophe in other countries: it seems like it could go either way. On one hand, implementing surveillance imposes a kind of risk externality onto non-surveilling countries (as all else being equal, malicious actors will prefer to act in locations where they're more likely to succeed). On the other hand, implementing surveillance may provide countries with information on malicious actors which they can share globally, and so reduce their corresponding risk. But even if some countries implementing surveillance decreases global catastrophe risk in non-surveilling countries, I would expect the magnitude of the effect to be small. Thus, the first problem remains. Under our assumption of technological progress, I think the second problem is very plausible. So ultimately, non-global surveillance is ineffective.

Conclusion

I think there are a few key points here:

In one line: ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance is probably a bad idea.

Notes


  1. The means/information distinction is pretty arbitrary - I introduce it to clarify my thinking later. I draw the distinction by assuming that to cause a global catastrophe you need information on how to do so, and the physical implementation of that information (e.g. assembling a bomb, or writing malicious code). 'Means' is supposed to capture everything in the second category, i.e. everything necessary to cause a global catastrophe which isn't just information. ↩︎

  2. There a few different ways it could be the ‘best’ response:

    1. If it is the most effective response
      1. i.e. reduces vulnerability risk the most
      2. i.e. reduces overall risk the most
    2. If it is the least costly response
      1. i.e. weighing the benefits of risk reduction against the harms of possible interventions, it has the highest expected utility
      2. i.e. for a given 'intervention harm budget', it delivers the greatest risk reduction
      3. i.e. for a given 'risk reduction quota', it has the smallest intervention harm

    I think my arguments stand regardless of which notion we choose, and I try to remain neutral between these interpretations. ↩︎

  3. For more on this view, see Existential Risk Prevention as Global Priority ↩︎

  4. See, for example, The Right to Privacy ↩︎

  5. See, for example, this project ↩︎

  6. Here I assume that really bad actions are very unlikely to happen to any particular person, and only become extremely likely in the long term. It's unlikely that I will personally experience a global catastrophic event: the risk of a global catastrophe happening is high only when considered over time spans greater than a lifetime. The second perspective is relevant for existential risk mitigation, while the first is relevant for individual action. ↩︎

13 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by matthew.vandermerwe · 2022-08-01T18:09:34.926Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for writing this, I like the forensic approach. I've long wished there was more discussion of the VWH paper, so it's been great to see yours and Maxwell Tabarrok's post [EA · GW] in recent weeks. 

Not an objection to your argument, but minor quibble with your reconstructed Bostrom argument:

P4: Ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance is the best way to decrease the risk of global catastrophes

I think it's worth noting that the paper's conclusion is that both ubiquitous surveillance and  effective global governance are required for avoiding existential catastrophe,[1] even if only discussing one of these.

[Disclaimer: I work for Nick Bostrom, these are my personal views]

  1. ^

    from conclusion: "We traced the root cause of our civilizational exposure to two structural properties of the contemporary world order: on the one hand, the lack of preventive policing capacity to block, with extremely high reliability, individuals or small groups from carrying out actions that are highly illegal; and, on the other hand, the lack of global governance capacity to reliably solve the gravest international coordination problems even when vital national interests by default incentivize states to defect. General stabilization against potential civilizational vulnerabilities [...] would require that both of these governance gaps be eliminated."

comment by Zach Stein-Perlman (zsp) · 2022-08-01T15:50:58.994Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

I haven't finished reading this post yet, but I noticed that you're only considering type-1 risk in Bostrom's typology. Type-2a, type-2b, and type-0 risks don't require "malicious actors" or "actors who want to cause such events" for catastrophe to occur. This is probably fine since surveillance is mostly a response to type-1 risk, but I want to note that there are vulnerabilities other than those you discuss.

Replies from: catherine
comment by Catherine Brewer (catherine) · 2022-08-01T15:58:53.648Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Yeah, thanks for flagging this! I didn't cover the other kinds of risks because I think the case for surveillance is strongest for mitigating type-1 risks, and Bostrom's suggestions for mitigating other risks looked less contentious.

comment by Sharmake · 2022-08-01T19:11:42.782Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

My usual answer to VWH concerns is that it unreasonably assumes that we can align global states and make sure they stay aligned. The default state is a narrow interest group usually takes it over. Also, states have more reason to pursue black-ball technologies like nukes, pandemics and more, and it has no incentive to pursue gray or white-ball technologies, so a global surveillance state will in time try to kill billions based on narrow interest groups.

comment by hp (Hanna Pálya) · 2022-08-01T14:20:28.236Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for writing this up!

 

I think I generally agree with most of your worries. Maybe somewhere along the lines of the free thought effect and the weirdness effect, there is something about anxiety. I think everyone (rightfully) feeling watched all the time could plausibly result in mass anxiety, which would have debilitating effects on productivity and also would just generally decrease life quality. I think it’s unlikely that we could adapt to this relatively easily.

 

I think it could be helpful to specifically consider the possibility that really bad things haven’t happened because bad actors were caught early on by existing surveillance methods. This probably falls under your "current efforts to prevent global catastrophes".  If we accept that catastrophe-causing technology is getting more accessible, in this scenario, the parallel drawn between tech development and surveillance development by Bostrom would be more plausible.

 

Also, I think some of the proposed alternative interventions (banning some kinds of scientific research, banning materials, digital surveillance etc.) would require at least some sort of controversial surveillance. If we implemented all of these different kinds of surveillance methods, it seems to me we might not be too far from ubiquitous real-time worldwide surveillance.

Replies from: catherine, Samuel Shadrach
comment by Catherine Brewer (catherine) · 2022-08-01T16:26:33.391Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

The anxiety point sounds plausible to me, but it depends on how the surveillance is implemented and who implements it (as do all my concerns, to be fair). I expect if surveillance was gradually introduced and generally implemented by trusted actors, then people would be much less likely to feel anxious about being watched. (Maybe a relevant analogy is CCTV - people now seem basically fine with being on camera in public, at least in Britain, but I expect we'd be much less happy about it if we'd gone from 0 CCTV cameras to current levels.)

I agree that if surveillance is stopping most bad acts currently, the case for expanding it is stronger! I probably should have been clearer about this in my post. I think my main worry is that harm doesn't increase linearly with the scale of surveillance - I think some harms, like totalitarianism risk and effects on free speech and weirdness, only occur when surveillance is very widespread (if not universal). So even if limited forms of surveillance are doing a good job at stopping bad stuff, we should think carefully about massively expanding it.

I agree with your last point too, and I don't think my suggestions were particularly good. Ideally we could find an effective response which, if it is surveillance, is limited in scope - i.e. surveilling people in certain roles or contexts. I think this would be significantly less harmful than ubiquitous surveillance, for the reasons I've described in the previous paragraph. And I also don't think we should implement all of these methods, for the same reasons :)

comment by acylhalide (Samuel Shadrach) · 2022-08-02T04:29:54.166Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

I'm not sure how much anxiety matters.

Everyone is being surveillance by Google today, all your files, emails, geo locations, your whole daily routine can already be mapped unless you're taking special efforts to prevent this. If there is a significant effect on anxiety it should be measurable as of today.

comment by Oscar Delaney · 2022-08-01T21:35:11.774Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Hi, I think I share these intuitions (surveillance is bad) but have a few qualms about your arguments:

  1. Regarding multi-layered defence, I agree it seems best to not solely rely on one protective mechanism.  I am unconvinced that having super surveillance will significantly lower other defence mechanisms. (I don't think people wearing seat belts drive more recklessly?).  Also, if we grant that people will be lulled into false sense of security, then I could well imagine malicious actors would likewise assume surveillance is very effective, and think 'oh well, I won't try to end the world as I'd just get caught.'  Alternately, if surveillance is more a bluff than something that actually works great, it may still impose significant costs on malicious actors, eg not being able to recruit or communicate over long distances, coordination problems, and generally just slow them down because they are spending resources trying not to be surveilled.
  2. Regarding Hanna's comment, as you note with CCTV, I think humans are just remarkably adaptable, and while there may be some transition pains, I think growing up in a fully-surveilled society wouldn't seem that bad or strange.  I think because people get used to things, we would also keep being weird and thinking well, as long as the surveillance was indeed very focused on preventing mega-bad things.
  3. I also share Jack's worry that these somewhat fuzzier concerns about people thinking less independently and being anxious and boring and mainstream do rather pale in comparison to reducing catastrophic risks, at least if one places some credence on more totalising versions of longtermism.  Thus, for me I think the key reasons I'm not super bullish on surveillance are that it would be really hard to implement well and globally, as you note, and I agree the totalitarianism risk seems major and plausibly outweighs the gains.
Replies from: catherine
comment by Catherine Brewer (catherine) · 2022-08-01T22:37:09.409Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

On 1: I agree it's not clear that having surveillance would make us less likely to implement other defence mechanisms because of a false sense of security. I think it's more plausible that having surveillance makes us less likely to implement other defence mechanisms because implementing new policies takes time, political energy, and money. I think it makes sense to think about policymaking as a prioritisation question, and probably controversial and expensive policies are less likely to be implemented if the issue they address is perceived to have been dealt with. So I'd expect implementing perceived effective surveillance to decrease the likelihood that other defence mechanisms aimed at reducing GCRs are implemented. (Although this isn't necessarily the case - maybe increasing surveillance makes other extreme defence mechanisms less politically costly?) This is isn't an argument I make in my post, so thanks for pushing back!

I like your point on supposedly effective surveillance as a kind of bluff. I think this imposes a lower bound on the effectiveness of global surveillance, as even ineffective surveillance will have this deterrence effect. However, I'd guess that over time, malicious actors will realise that the system is less effective than they initially thought, and so the risk from malicious actors creeps back up again. (This is speculative: I'm guessing that some actors will still try things and realise that they don't get caught, and that there's some communication between malicious actors. My immediate reaction was "man, it'd be hard for a surveillance system that wasn't that effective to be considered effective for a really long time, won't people find out?")

On 2 and 3: yeah, I agree with you here that totalitarianism risk is the main problem, and I should have been clearer about that in my post. I can imagine (like you say) that in a world where trusted global surveillance has always been the norm, we remain weird and free-thinking.

comment by Sarah Weiler · 2022-08-01T15:26:13.594Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Nice dissection of the VWH and its possible points of weakness, found this very helpful for thinking through the argument(s) on surveillance as an intervention!

Here's one (not very decisive) comment to add to what you say about "Maybe we could change human values so nobody (or almost nobody) wants to cause global catastrophes? ":  This could link to efforts for understanding and addressing "the root causes" of terrorism (and other kinds of extreme violence). Research and thinking on this seems very unconclusive and far from providing a clear recipe for interventions at this point; but given the problems of the mass-surveillance approach that you outline, "tackling root causes/motivations" might still be worth looking into as a potential alternative approach towards reducing the risk of global catastrophe caused by "bad actors".

comment by MakoYass · 2022-08-04T02:10:43.324Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

I've been thinking about transparent societies [LW · GW] (democratic surveillance) for a while. While I'm still concerned about free thought effects, where cultures living under radical transparency might develop a global preference falsification monoculture (situations where everyone in the open world is lying about what kind of world we want due to a repressive false consensus, crushing innovation, healthy criticism of mainstream ideas, etc)... that concern is decreasing as I go, I think it's going to turn out to be completely defeatable.

This will be approximate, I hope to do a full post about it eventually, but, a way of summing up my current view is...

  • Radical transparency is already steadily happening because it is incredibly useful (this surprises me too). Celebrity, twitter, Disclosure movements, open-source intelligence.
  • Weird people will always exist, you will always have to look at them, no amount of social pressure will make them go away, and some of them are critical specialists, who we need and love. Most of the thinkers and doers and processes of dialog that I actually admire and respect are weird in a way that is resilient to those anti-weird anti-free-thought effects that we were worried about, and I'm not really afraid of those effects at all on most days.

People will start to exult a new virtue of brazenness, once they see that free thought is a hard dependency for original work. Everyone I know (including you) already sees that is. Even transparency's best critics are stridently admitting that it is. On the other side: The people who stop exploring when they're being watched, will also very visibly stop being able to produce any original thoughts at all. Communities of othering and repression of small differences will quickly become so insane and ineffective that it will alienate everyone who ever believed in them, even their own members will start to notice (this is already happening under the radical transparency of twitter, which, note, interestingly, was completely voluntary, and mostly unremarked upon). And the people of brazenness will very visibly continue producing things, and so I expect brazenness to become fashionable.
Transparency will harm experimental work momentarily, if at all, before the great gardener sees in this new light, that the pitiful things they've been treading on all of this time were young flowers, learns to be more careful with rough and burgeoning things, and then western culture will adapt to transparency, and then we will fear it no more.

But the largest obstacle is that the technologies for fair transparency still don't quite exist yet ( consistent, reliable and convenient and trustworthy recording systems, methods for preventing harrassment mobs (DDOS protection, better spam prevention)). But I've found that the solutions to these issues (hardware, protocols, distributed storage, webs of trust) are not very complicated, and I think they'll arrive without much deliberate effort.

 

The next largest obstacle is mass simultaneous adoption, which you rightly single out with the discussion global democratic agreement. A transparent society is not interested in going halfway and building a panopticon or building a transparent state that will simply crumble in the face of an opaque one. I'm not confident that a global order will manage to get over the hump.

I have some pretty big objections to some of the things you said on this, though. Mainly that the advantages for the majority of signatories in universal transparency are actually great:

  • Even just on the margin: Note that celebrity is a kind of radical transparency. Note that the best practitioners tend to want to publish their work because the esteem of releasing it outweighs whatever competitive advantage it might have won their company to not release it.
  • It would allow their field to progress faster as a result of more sharing, and of course it means that they can progress more safely. You assert that you consider it unlikely that you'll live to see a catastrophe. I think that's uninformed. Longtermist arguments work even if the chance is small and far off, but the chance actually isn't small or far off. Ajeya Cotra found that biological anchors for intelligence set a conservative median estimate for the arrival of AGI in about 2050, but Ajeya's personal median estimate is now 2040. Regardless, (afaict) most decisionmakers have kids and will care what happens to their grandkids.

It's still going to be difficult to get every state that could harbor strong AI work to sign up for the unprecedented levels of reporting and oversight required to limit proliferation. I'm not hopeful that those talks will work out. I'll become hopeful if we reach a point where the leaders in the field safely demonstrate the presence of danger beyond reasonable doubt (Demonstration of Cataclysmic Trajectory [EA · GW]). At that point, it might be possible.

comment by Jack Malde (jackmalde) · 2022-08-01T15:25:18.375Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

I looked through your post very quickly (and wrote this very quickly) so I may have missed things, but my main critical thoughts are around the “costs probably outweigh the benefits” argument as I don’t think you have adequately considered the benefits.

Surveillance is really shit, most people would accept that, but perhaps even more shit is the destruction of humanity or humanity entering a really bad persistent state (e.g. AI torturing humans for the rest of time). If we really want to avoid these existential catastrophes a solution that limits free thought may easily be worth it.

You do briefly cover that surveillance could lead to an existential catastrophe in itself, and I’d like to see a more in-depth exploration of this. But even so (and this might sound very weird) there are better and worse existential catastrophes. For example a 1984-type scenario whilst really shit, is probably better than AI torturing us for the rest of time. So I do think some weighing up of risks and their badness is warranted here.

This criticism doesn’t cover your other points e.g. that there may be more effective ways of reducing risks. I actually think there are a lot of valid points here that need more exploration. I’m just saying that I think your CBA is incomplete.

Replies from: catherine
comment by Catherine Brewer (catherine) · 2022-08-01T15:56:28.920Z · EA(p) · GW(p)

Hey, thanks for commenting!

I think this is a good criticism, and despite most of my post arguing that surveillance would probably be bad, I agree that in some cases it could still be worth it. I think my crux is whether the decrease of risk from malicious actors due to surveillance is greater than the increase in totalitarianism and misuse risk (plus general harms to free speech and so on).

It seems like surveillance must be global and very effective to greatly decrease the risk from malicious actors, and furthermore that it's really hard to reduce misuse risk of global and effective surveillance. I'm sceptical that we could make the risks associated with surveillance sufficiently small to make surveillance an overall less risky option, even supposing the risks surveillance helps decrease are worse than the ones it increases. (I don't think I share this intuition, but it definitely seems right from a utilitarian perspective). I agree though that in principle, despite increasing other risks, it might be sometimes better to surveil.