Perverse Excited Failure & Justified General Frustration 2021-08-13T23:42:38.654Z
Limited Time Opportunity to Secure Panamanian Residency - EA Group Trip Offer [Imminent Rules Change] 2021-06-04T19:07:08.454Z
How many EAs are there? 2021-03-16T20:27:04.090Z
Second Citizenships, Residencies, and/or Temporary Relocation 2021-02-16T19:23:50.745Z
[Meta] Up and down voting should be added next to the circles with the scores (to the left of this title), like on Reddit 2015-12-06T19:41:28.166Z
To Grow, Hit the Brakes (Why Conversion Rate Matters So Much and Means EA is Not Doing Anywhere Close to as Well as We Think) 2015-09-07T17:12:08.796Z
Announcing the Doing Good Better Giveaway 2015-07-06T00:02:19.303Z


Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Canva CEO commits at least $6 billion “to do the most good” · 2021-09-16T17:59:35.528Z · EA · GW

This job posting existed:

May have been high impact?

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What we learned from a year incubating longtermist entrepreneurship · 2021-09-02T05:58:30.269Z · EA · GW

The Slack used for the fellowship is no longer being used

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Concern about the EA London COVID protocol · 2021-09-02T05:57:34.079Z · EA · GW

Someone in favor of the policy may respond to some of your concerns (e.g. the latter ones) with this sort of argument:

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Cost-Effectiveness of Air Purifiers against Pollution · 2021-09-01T20:31:29.129Z · EA · GW

You use "we" a lot in this write-up; is there a coauthor or organization that was a part of this?

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What are examples of technologies which would be a big deal if they scaled but never ended up scaling? · 2021-08-27T16:41:24.792Z · EA · GW

From my perspective, technically, Google Wave qualifies with the words you’ve written, but I don’t think it’s in the spirit of what you’ve written. (“Cheap” makes me think you’re looking for physical-world inventions, which is probably worth being more explicit about.)

If I’m wrong and it does qualify, there’s a number of web app examples.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Study: AI targeting helped us reach more people in poverty · 2021-08-15T18:42:10.053Z · EA · GW

Here’s the actual paper:

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on [PR FAQ] Adding profile pictures to the Forum · 2021-08-10T16:05:57.233Z · EA · GW

There's a benefit, probably the main benefit IMO, that I don't feel like the above or any commenters address.

I claim that:

  1. Profile pictures will make "who wrote what" more identifiable and memorable
  2. There are many ways in which this could be good:

--- A: It will become easier to recall (and then potentially discuss) content that someone wrote when meeting them in-person / on zoom. I've had the experience multiple times at EA Globals where I interact with someone, then look them up, and realize there were topics they've written about that I would have loved to discuss, if only I recalled that they were the ones who wrote it.

---B: It will be easier to build ideas around individuals, such that you know better how to relate to their content. For example, there are usernames that post often on the Forum, but I currently often don't readily recall if I've found their previous articles accurate and insightful. Often I don't click on these titles, because I'm time-constrained. If I had a better model of whose work I'd appreciated or not appreciated in the past, I could better select what content I consume in the future (digitally, in person, or on zoom). This applies regardless of my selection algorithm... e.g. "read more of what I like", "read more of what is popular but my prior is I won't like", "see how this person's thoughts are developing", etc. It also gives me more opportunity to make better decisions on who I interact with, how much I understand them, and in what ways.

----- I understand that many may see this as a negative (becoming too focused on who the author is), but I personally expect that building better models / having richer information is generally valuable.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Is effective altruism growing? An update on the stock of funding vs. people · 2021-07-30T05:16:31.035Z · EA · GW

Thanks, that’s helpful info.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Is effective altruism growing? An update on the stock of funding vs. people · 2021-07-29T17:49:49.561Z · EA · GW

In 2020, I estimate about 14% net growth, bringing the total number of active EAs to 7,400.

  1. Do you think this growth rate applies to the "Highly-Engaged EAs" classification as well, of which there were estimated to be 2,315 in the 2019 Rethink Priorities analysis?

  2. Is this an estimate for the "Active EAs" at the end of 2020, or as of July 2021?

(Caveat to others that if you look at these estimates in Rethink Priorities initial 2019 report, you'll find that while they are well-informed, they are quite rough, so precise estimates have limited value.)

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on CEA Update: Q2 2021 · 2021-07-29T14:52:25.437Z · EA · GW

I really appreciate this sort of thorough update.

There are a large number of comparisons to only a single previous value. For example:

The average morale reported for Q2 was 7.03/10, compared with 6.45/10 in Q1.

For each instance, I’d value the inclusion of additional historic data or the acknowledgment of when more historic data isn’t available (because it wasn’t measured).

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on vaidehi_agarwalla's Shortform · 2021-07-26T23:19:27.056Z · EA · GW

I did not review the model, but only 75% of hours being unpaid seems much too low based on my experience having gone through the job hiring process (including later stages) with 10-15 EA orgs.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Duoflag - A side-project tackling international migration · 2021-07-20T13:36:05.641Z · EA · GW

Do you have or know of some data on post-move (SWB vs prior, income vs prior, etc)? I’d find that more interesting than pre-move interest.

Comment by joshjacobson on [deleted post] 2021-07-11T16:05:14.462Z

The welcome page does not load for me; I tried three different browsers.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Jumping in Front of Bullets vs. Organ Donation · 2021-07-11T15:41:24.719Z · EA · GW

It looks like I accidentally took credit for Zach Weems' estimate, made here:

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Jumping in Front of Bullets vs. Organ Donation · 2021-07-11T02:52:41.838Z · EA · GW

I’ve tried to estimate the number of life years saved by the typical organ donor, and the latest estimate was I think something like 0.1.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on EA for Jews - Proposal and Request for Comment · 2021-07-02T16:54:46.896Z · EA · GW

On the off chance you're at all dissuaded by now existing, I want to provide my perspective that:

  1. I'd much prefer there to be something that's unaffiliated with an existing Jewish group
  2. I'd much prefer there to be something that's non-denominational
  3. Effective giving != effective altruism

So I encourage you to not be put off at all by that existing; if anything, to me, it makes the need for an alternative greater.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What is life like at the median global income? · 2021-07-01T07:15:07.789Z · EA · GW

It's been years since I read it, but I recall Poor Economics ( providing significant insight on life at lower levels of income; I think it was probably also informative about the median case.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What are some key numbers that (almost) every EA should know? · 2021-06-19T02:07:31.487Z · EA · GW

Given the donations / year figures, these seem relevant:

  • World Bank expenditures (inc. loans) per year: $10^11 ($61 billion)
  • UN expenditures per year: $10^11 ($48 billion)
  • EU expenditures per year: $10^12 ($182 billion)
  • ADB (Asian Development Bank) expenditures per year: $10^11 ($23 billion)

I think all figures were from around 2015, so these could now be different.

Some others are much smaller and therefore not included, such as GAVI, IMF, WHO, etc.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on You can now apply to EA Funds anytime! (LTFF & EAIF only) · 2021-06-17T20:49:43.366Z · EA · GW

(Potential COI: I've received money from LTFF)

I think this is quite high value in expectation; it can be difficult for a grant round to coincide with an individual's timing. I personally know of instances where someone would have applied for a grant, but there was no grant round open (& sometimes decision timing can be an issue as well), and therefore they moved to doing something else they felt was lower value.

Great development!

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Improving Institutional Decision-Making: a new working group · 2021-06-07T07:09:20.571Z · EA · GW

This is possibly slightly helpful toward your goal of identifying the most important institutions in the world: (graph without explanation at: )

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Limited Time Opportunity to Secure Panamanian Residency - EA Group Trip Offer [Imminent Rules Change] · 2021-06-06T16:37:38.119Z · EA · GW

The main difference between the programs is that Panama's provides a path to citizenship without ever staying very long in-country, while Paraguay's is maintainable as a permanent resiidency with only short occasional visits, but to gain Paraguayan citizenship you must spend the majority of 3 years in-country. One source for this (though I've looked at many):

FWIW, a lawyer I'm speaking to about these options says that Paraguay's program is expected to change in the near future as well; they sit on the Paraguayan committee that's working on amending the law.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on EA intro videos for kids · 2021-05-25T05:56:10.790Z · EA · GW

I largely like this video, but I also think it’s good to be aware of some shortcomings of this: (can’t get permalink to work from mobile, but intended here to link to my comment on that post).

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Getting a feel for changes of karma and controversy in the EA Forum over time · 2021-04-08T00:01:32.512Z · EA · GW

We can use this mean monthly karma to scale all our posts by simply dividing the karma every post has by the mean karma of the month it was published. This allows us to determine which posts received the most praise in relation to how active the forum was at the time it was published.

I expect that the variance has fluctuated over time. If this were true, something like standard deviation away from the mean would be significantly more informative than simple adjustment on the basis of the mean.

FWIW, I also expect that the point made in this comment is valid, and therefore it may be ~impossible (unless the timing of votes is preserved) to understand reception at-the-time.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What are your main reservations about identifying as an effective altruist? · 2021-03-31T16:35:16.500Z · EA · GW

I'm bothered by a certain type of way I observe a significant number of EAs orienting toward the non-EA world. To me, it feels like there can be a lack of understanding, appreciation, and respect for the work/thoughts/opinions/accomplishments/culture of non-EAs that I sometimes find particularly naive and alienating. These experiences in particular drive me to have hesitance in self-identifying  as an EA.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on EA for Jews - Proposal and Request for Comment · 2021-03-28T23:24:44.522Z · EA · GW

FWIW, the three mentioned names to me point to different focuses:

EA for Jews: Seems to imply a customized form of EA more tailored to Jews; makes me think of donation opportunities in Israel, or Jewish giving groups, or something.

Effective Tzedakah: Feels all about affecting Jew's donations to be more effective and less about things like research or careers. It does seem, of these three, the most accessible to non-EA Jews you may hope to attract, but possibly not beyond donations.

 Jews in EA: Points to being an affinity group of EAs who want to get together with other Jews. Doesn't seem like a recruitment organization, but (mainly) a group for those already in EA.

I do think any of these names can be used for the entire multitude of goals this initiative may have, but the focus and first-interpretation of the name seems likely to be understood quite differently.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on How many EAs are there? · 2021-03-16T21:25:02.771Z · EA · GW

Thanks, I was unfamiliar with their estimates for the proportion of the community they estimate.

"We estimate there are around 2315 highly engaged EAs and 6500 (90% CI: 4700-10,000) active EAs in the community overall."

That source also provides some other sources for estimates.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Second Citizenships, Residencies, and/or Temporary Relocation · 2021-02-19T22:20:05.360Z · EA · GW

I've just realized today (~5 days after posting) my footnotes did not transfer from the Google Docs draft. If you are returning to this post after previously reading it, you may want to take a brief look at the footnotes, as there are some potentially valuable resources linked in them.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Second Citizenships, Residencies, and/or Temporary Relocation · 2021-02-17T19:50:23.666Z · EA · GW

There's some discussion of this in the comments on LessWrong, including identification of some inaccuracies in this post, that you may want to check out.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Apply now for EA Global: Reconnect (March 20-21) · 2021-02-10T17:39:49.203Z · EA · GW

It's unclear to me if my application was successfully submitted. I hit 'submit' (eventually multiple times) and did not see a confirmation message nor did the page change. There may be a bug in the submission of the form.

(Edit: I did receive an email confirmation of my application, however)

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Money Can't (Easily) Buy Talent · 2021-01-27T00:53:31.812Z · EA · GW

I am not trying to claim that EA orgs do not meet basic living thresholds, but rather that "There are many organizations offering amounts that many likely find greatly constraining to living off of."

I think it's quite common for EA job offers to be in the $40-$55k range (there are also many well above this range), with multiple instances of being significantly lower than that (e.g. $30k).

I believe that there are many that find these potential salaries to be greatly constraining.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Money Can't (Easily) Buy Talent · 2021-01-25T08:03:51.295Z · EA · GW

People don't value money

This section, in order to apply to people, seemingly assumes something like "beyond meeting their basic needs" or "beyond meeting some threshold amount."

I believe that there's a very good chance that many EA orgs are not meeting the threshold amount of many people whom they are targeting. There are many organizations offering amounts that many likely find greatly constraining to living off of.

I think this section would be more applicable if the market you were commenting on largely paid well; instead I think it is highly variable with a sizable constituency of poorly paying jobs.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What would an EA do in the american revolution? · 2021-01-10T09:24:47.551Z · EA · GW

It's worth noting that a large part of the argument there (but far from all of it) would not apply to this question unless you were in such an influential position that you could have a meaningful effect on whether or not the war took place at all.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Long-Term Future Fund: April 2019 grant recommendations · 2020-11-01T04:29:48.867Z · EA · GW

1) There are a number of plausible (>1% probability) scenarios in the next hundred years that would result in a "civilizational collapse", where an unprecedented number of people die and key technologies are (temporarily) lost.

Are you saying here that you believe the scenarios add up to a greater than 1% probability of collapse in the next hundred years, or that you believe there are multiple scenarios that each have greater than 1% probability?

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on I Want To Do Good - an EA puppet mini-musical! · 2020-10-08T22:41:05.465Z · EA · GW

This was fun to watch, and I'm sure to produce. For the most part I really liked it!

There was one part that struck me as off-base, around 1:22, where it says "Where otherwise they'd likely die!". There were a few reasons I found these few seconds problematic:

1. I felt that it implied TLYCS charities help save the lives of people who will otherwise die... e.g. it made me picture life-saving surgeries for people in critical care units. While there are many TLYCS charities that I'm unfamiliar with, no typically recommended EA global development organizations that I'm aware of prevent likely death. Rather, those that do save lives, help prevent disease, and as far as I know in no case the percent likelihood of death of an individual anywhere near 50% or greater without the intervention.

2. It felt like it was making light of the issue at that point as well. I think it would have been easy to continue the playful tone with a sad face and a bit of quietness at that time, with a slow ramp up of the volume later. Instead, it just breezed past it in a way that felt upbeat to me. FWIW, I also think that what felt to me a bit like making light of death made the video less credible to me.

Other, more minor, feedback:

1. I think it would likely have been better if shorter, or otherwise somehow more dynamic to justify the length. While there were a lot of great parts, I found it a bit repetitive and lost interest a bit.

2. I imagine the majority of the audience is American, and therefore I imagine the video would be better received, on average, if the main actor had an American accent rather than one of another country. An alternative could be to have the lyrics incorporated into the video to help with listening comprehension.

3. At 1:54, I was surprised by some of the icons. I'm not sure if there's a drinking water charity TLYCS suggests or not, but that's a less typical intervention for EAs to endorse. I also thought the mosquito would look better with a red circle and line over it or something.

I'm curious if there's a deployment strategy? I see the number of views is relatively low (currently 1.5k).

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Are there any other pro athlete aspiring EAs? · 2020-09-11T07:19:51.654Z · EA · GW

The founders of attended the 2015 EAG and expressed a very similar goal. I'm not sure what's happened since; it looks like they were either unsuccessful or there may have been some value drift.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Donor Lottery Debrief · 2020-08-07T01:17:56.294Z · EA · GW
With that in mind it was an easy call for me to make, and I committed the remaining $23,500 from the donation lottery, as well as some personal funds on top of that. Notably, EpiFor is now conducting its next funding round, and I continue to suspect that more donations may have a substantial (though high variance) impact—particularly since funding is currently affecting which opportunities they pursue.

Thanks for sharing Tim. If anyone would like to discuss a potential donation of $5,000 or more, please feel free to reach out to me at

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on What are examples of EA work being reviewed by non-EA researchers? · 2020-03-27T05:06:18.699Z · EA · GW

As someone who has sometimes made a similar claim, I find a lot of assessments of others' work, not just that of EAs, tends to be informal, off-the-record, and discussion-based. I in fact think that EAs with some frequency miss out on a wealth of knowledge due to a widespread and often insistent requirement that knowledge be citable in order to be meaningful. There are very strong reasons to greatly prefer and put greater weight on citable knowledge, but there is A LOT of intelligence that people do not share in recorded formats for a variety of reasons, such as effort and reputational risks.

So I believe some lack of answers to this may be due to critiques of EA work being shared e.g. verbally, rather than more formally. Personally, I've discussed EA work with at least 4 quite prominent economists, at least 2 of whom I believed had reviewed some significant aspect of EA research and perspective thoroughly, but I have not really shared these accounts. To be sharable, I'd likely require more time and attention of these economists than I'm easily able to get, in order to ensure I provided both full and proper explanation and sufficient guarantee of anonymity.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Ubiquitous Far-Ultraviolet Light Could Control the Spread of Covid-19 and Other Pandemics · 2020-03-20T21:55:49.372Z · EA · GW

One other mention of this idea:

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Ubiquitous Far-Ultraviolet Light Could Control the Spread of Covid-19 and Other Pandemics · 2020-03-20T21:52:24.247Z · EA · GW

This seems well-researched and examined, and it may be neglected, important and even has some level of tractability. Given the timeliness of the topic, I'm quite surprised this is not much more upvoted; it feels like one of the better posts on the EA Forum I've seen. Thanks for writing!

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Be the Match: a volunteer list for bone marrow donation · 2019-11-13T07:03:16.207Z · EA · GW
That probability is not 1, because they might have been saved by someone else instead, and you would want to adjust the cost-effectiveness based on this probability.

In many, many instances, a donation extends a life in expectation only a small amount vs. not receiving a donation. It isn't "saving a life" in many cases with donation, and for many it's a positive update for their condition, but not a "necessity".

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Be the Match: a volunteer list for bone marrow donation · 2019-10-28T01:04:36.967Z · EA · GW

As an FYI, the expected benefit here is largely dependent on your ethnicity, and to a lesser extent, age:

1. White Americans/Europeans have very strong chances of finding a match (or many matches), so registering with that background means that you're likely less unique to the existing donor pool. Replaceability can often be high with this sort of background.

2. Those with other ethnic backgrounds can have much more difficulty finding matches. The less common your background (e.g., if you are mixed race, or from a less common background as found in the US, UK, and Germany (the countries which have the most donors)), the more likely it is that you'll be providing a donor where there is not otherwise a good candidate to be found, and thus actually sort of 'saving a life'.

3. Males under the age of 26 are typically considered the best donors, so you should more strongly consider this if you're a young, and/or male (although certainly many donors are used that don't match that criteria). If you're over 65, have a blood disorder, have received radiation, etc. you'll likely be told you're ineligible to donate to non-relatives.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on A Framework for Assessing the Potential of EA Development in Emerging Locations · 2019-08-28T16:14:26.540Z · EA · GW

As an FYI, I doubt the source for [1] is reliable, and it may be that there were more groups earlier than 2 years ago than now... groups have been forming and shutting down with some regularity.

Establish advisory board for further work on EA in Asia

Please be very, very careful with this. I claim EA has made many significant mistakes as its Western-based members have tried to engage with other cultures. It's not easy to do well.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Announcing: " High-Impact Crowdfunding campaigns" & "Let's Fund #1: A (small) scientific Revolution" · 2018-10-28T16:19:19.925Z · EA · GW

I haven't reviewed this in depth, but this strikes me as exactly the right type of thing that EAs should now be funding in the space of international development. There is much more potential in the meta- space that hasn't been explored, and this example being supported, and Hauke's experience, seem promising in that direction.

For example, other meta ideas I'd expect to be highly valuable:

  1. Working to get IPA/J-PAL to mandate pre-registration and published results for their studies
  2. Quantifying and breaking down ODA to the extent possible across organizations, sectors, geographies, etc.
  3. Advocating for more CEA within IGOs, better ODA spends
  4. Supporting builds and integrations of tools/techniques that improve research (e.g. falsification detection)
  5. Advocacy for more studies in key interventions (deworming, others that are promising but haven't been sufficiently studied), currently somewhat addressed by GiveWell's IDinsight partnership.
  6. Supporting AidGrade
  7. Increasing the quality-basis of key GW assumptions (external validity of various studies that are highly relied upon)
  8. Creating a fully comprehensive charity dataset focused on gathering key indicators of cost-effectiveness for every 501(c)3


Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on How to have cost-effective fun · 2018-07-01T16:58:40.760Z · EA · GW

I appreciate this. A lot of smart ideas.

I know this isn't meant to be universal, but just a note that for me, eating out is one of the best activities on the fun-per-dollar scale.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Applying EA Measures to Peacebuilding and Violent Conflict · 2018-04-20T20:15:03.012Z · EA · GW
  1. Why should this be considered tractable? Why should we think your approach is specifically tractable?

  2. I find this visualization to be likely deceptive. The 'cost of violence' most often includes a many types of violence (domestic, community, crime, etc.) that are unaddressed by 'peacekeeping' interventions. Is my read, that your visualization is comparing a huge category with a specific part of its spend, correct?

  3. Why should we focus on peacekeeping, the effect of which is very difficult to measure, instead of scaling or improving interventions on community violence, some of which already show significant promise in cost-effectiveness?

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Finding and managing literature on EA topics · 2017-11-13T21:02:32.626Z · EA · GW

This looks great! Looking forward to doing a more detailed read when I have more time, but I already see some resources and techniques I wasn't aware of or have failed to fully implement thus far, so this will serve as added motivation and a nice reference.

I find that the archive of Data Is Plural is a great source for data on a wide variety of topics:

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Talent gaps from the perspective of a talent limited organization. · 2017-11-06T22:21:50.370Z · EA · GW

What was the communication of this like? As someone who I believe has monitored CS pretty closely, I can't remember a time a salary approaching $50k was communicated.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on Talent gaps from the perspective of a talent limited organization. · 2017-11-03T18:56:29.430Z · EA · GW

I see you didn't call Charity Science 'talent constrained' but rather 'talent limited'. Was this intentional? Because it does seem Charity Science is an org that would get much better access to talent with more funds for salaries.... and that that is a likely major factor in your talent shortage.

Comment by joshjacobson on [deleted post] 2017-10-30T18:52:31.623Z

(x-post from FB, so phrasing is written more directly as a comment to Scott)

I think this is mostly spot on. There's one or two additional things I might have included based on my experience (would probably emphasize warm introductions more and mention the value in getting on their radar early).

Also just noting that I think the email could have been improved upon, but I'm interested in whether you share this belief. Top suggestion would have been to have one of the key attention-grabbing names in the subject line of the email, and to prioritize brevity a bit more.

I'm glad you wrote this... I do get questions in this vein a lot and expect it to be a helpful resource for many.

Comment by Josh Jacobson (joshjacobson) on 5 Types of Systems Change Causes with the Potential for Exceptionally High Impact (post 3/3) · 2017-10-23T16:43:00.287Z · EA · GW

I can't imagine why. Even all 3 together are shorter than many posts on here. And they really don't have much standalone value IMHO (i.e. the first).